WCL TALK

Beat · Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 19

[quote=":NoLimit:"]this was raymonds first big loss in a long time an he did take it like a champion. I assure you that he wont let this happen again he knew his ground game wasnt ready but he l wanted to see wear he was to know what he needed to work on and he WILL be back in the cage after hes finish with his training
raymond is a combat martial artist dont forget it next year when all the mma fighters are saying how much they like him and every other style of fighter sucks

Just Do are you'll never know your true limits
marc[/quote]

HA HA HA. Laughing

If Raymond is the best representation of Combat Martial arts, then Combat Martial Arts is DOOMED. It takes a pretty long time to learn quality wrestling and submissions for a ground neophyte like Daniels who's used to the WCL point system. He doesn't even have a ground game. Not even a bad ground game, ZERO ground game. Everyone getting into the cage has wrestled in high school or at least gotten a blue-belt level skill in BJJ to back them up. Daniels has neither. Even Cung Le competed in Sanda, which allowed takedowns, forcing him to defend against them.

How has Chuck prepared these WCL fighters for the reality of groundfighting? He hasn't, and therefore, they will lose every time. I suppose he could send some of them to K-1 Max, but that would be an even bigger slaughter.

Thomas Longarcre vs. John Wayne Parr (who's considered middle of the road in Max) Parr by murder.

:NoLimit: · Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 4

the thing is raymond is willing to fight out side his comfort zone witch most of the mma fighters will not do. thats what makes him a champion and put any mma fighter in the wcl against him and see what happens when there outside there comfort zone will they last 3 min with him we dont know cause who will challenge him NO ONE are he wouldnt be crossing over

Just do are you'll never know your true limits
marc

P.J. Reilly · Joined: 02 Dec 2006 Posts: 52 Location: Grand Junction, CO

Raymond Daniels is a warrior. He went outside his comfort zone and competed at a high level. He should be commended for his effort and not ridiculed. There are two types of people in this world doers and talkers. Raymond proved that he is a true fighter win or lose.
_________________
naturalfighter.com

Beat · Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 19

[quote=":NoLimit:"]the thing is raymond is willing to fight out side his comfort zone...[/quote]

So was Ceasar Takashi, Masakatsu Funaki, Kiyoshi Tamura, Royce Gracie, Volk Han, Semmy Shilt, Andy Souwer, Cung Le, and legions of fighters from upstart ruleset promotions that lived by the mantra come home with your shield or upon it. This sort of "proving worth in the outside world" setup that Daniels attempted (and failed miserably at) has been done by necessity by a variety of organizations in order to boost their legitimacy. You make a new combat sport with a new ruleset, you will be expected to test your mettle against more accepted rulesets to prove that yours isn't just a dumping ground for rejects from other sports. Andy Souwer bought respect to Shootboxing, Semmy Schilt bought respect to Daijo-Juku school of Karate, Cung Le bought respect to San Shou outside of dubious Chinese government sponsored matches, etc. Even Kazushi Sakuraba started his MMA career to prove, in his words "professional wrestling is strong."

The story of those who strived to bring their arts legitimacy and respect is a fascinating one. But let's face facts. Combat Martial Artists aren't using techniques that are practical or effective, and Raymond Daniels is cocky, arrogant, and concealed in his own little bubble world, and the one time he came out, he lost badly. That is the legacy of the WCL- Washed up athletes from other fighting sports and those that can't hack it in the higher levels of Muay Thai or MMA. Cool

:NoLimit: · Joined: 29 Jun 2008 Posts: 4

raymond is confident every fighter is. raymonds in ring persona is cocky have you ever spooke to him NO because if you did you wouldn't call him cocky he's actully pretty modest but to be the best you have to stand out you have to give a reason to watch you how many people are talking about that fight alot and when he comes back its going to be even more. love him are hate him you want to watch him because he is a warrior

Just do are you'll never know your true limits
marc

Beat · Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 19

I'll be more than happy to watch him lose again if that's what you mean.

Pittboss · Joined: 05 May 2008 Posts: 45

Just so we can clear this up...there are good MMA and K1 fighters in the WCL. At least 1 or 2 fighters from each team are MMA fighters. I posted earlier a few names. Nick Gonzalez is a title holder for example. Pat Barry is a K1 tournament winner and is an Ernesto Hoost student and lived with him for 4 years. I understand Ray was unprepared and preformed poorly but that doesn't mean every fighter in the league sucks at MMA. And I do agree Ray showed that he has absolutely no ground game or take down defense. But not everyone in the league practices strictly stand up.

jmm1 · Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject:

So, to follow on Pitboss, the WCL is a different sport than MMA (it is a striking art with no requirement of ground game). Some MMA fighter are in the WCL and are good, some MMA fighters are in the WCL and not as good. Daniels' loss in MMA does not prove that WCL fighters and combat martial arts are "doomed" as Beat said earlier. All it proved was that a fantastic striker with no ground game or takedown defense who was fighting a weight class higher than he should have cannot hang in MMA with a guy in his 13th pro MMA fight.

Any broad proclamations that ALL WCL fighters cannot compete in MMA are just dumb and uninformed. Did you know a few WCL fighter's primary style is jujitsu. Also, to the post earlier that said "How has Chuck prepared these WCL fighters for the reality of groundfighting?", why would he prepare them to fight on the ground? The WCL is not a training league for MMA, it is a stand-up league, the post makes no sense.

bigj · Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 253

Ray is an awesome athelete. I was miffed at a lot of things fri night from Ray fighting at 185 which is heavy for him, to matching him up wtih a grappler vs a seasoned mma fighter whose game was stand up, to having nobody in his corner whose game was ground fighting. however I think it's the best thing that ever happened to him. it does illuminate the areas and the degree on which he has to work on. he said after the fight he totally underestimated the ground fighting aspect. The issue with most of these guys isn't what kind of fighter they are but what kind of athelete and how much to they want to put into it.

Now I was there and Ray wasn't an his feet more than a moment and if I didn't know Ray all the matches for the most part, esp those that were submitted were, for me just a step up from college wrestling. great athletes but boring to watch. Give me the WCL

Beat · Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 19

The WCL, where you get poor athletes and an uber-restrictive ruleset?

I'm saying the WCL is DOOMED because if they can't win in other settings, then the WCL will be viewed as a dumping ground for those who couldn't make it in other sports. To paraphrase one boxer- "WCL's fighters can't make it in MMA, that's why they're in the WCL."

jmm1 · Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 7:36 am Post subject:

Beat,

If you do not like the WCL, why don't you go post on the forum of something you do like?

bigj · Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 253

look beat is a fantasy warrior who thinks that mma is the real thing evidently or closer to the real thing which is hilarious. MMA is a step up from college wrestling and if they take the piss poor stand up out of it. it would never survive. I'll take the Ray over the Iceman anyday in a stand up only match.

It's obvious that beat can't separate style from athleticism.

using beats logic MMA fighters are piss poor athletes whose stand up got them killed so they had to learn to grappling and all that other butt huggin they do looking for submission. most stand up fighters have enough sense to not want to swap sweat with some guy who may not be to sure about their masculinity. I mean you have to wonder why a guy would take up a sport where your huggin other guys is the object. Stand up ..stay out of the way ..take down grab and hug... not enough male attention growing up I suppose.

Ray is a great athlete that will be great at whatever he applies himself to. The tragedy isn't that Ray took the fight or took the fight and lost.. but stand up isn't quite at a place where it can support it's warriors. I think the WCL can do that. Quite frankly if the money was there you'd see MMA fighters crossing over believing that their skills were adequate enough to handle someone like Ray and what happened to Ray would happen to them except for the fact the body swap sweat choke out, would be a flat on your back knockout.

Beat · Joined: 20 Jan 2008 Posts: 19

So we're reduced to gay jokes now, aren't we? Real fights don't resemble karate point sparring, as Daniels found out.

[img]http://i32.tinypic.com/2uji91z.gif[/img]

bigj · Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 253

neither look like "real fights" eye's throat groin knees against the joint are not in play. there are several mma fighters who thought their stand up was good enough to stand up with these guys and got beat. Tell you what get one of your mma guys who thinks his stand up is good enough to hang with Ray and we'll work out the details....Some who is to mma as Ray is to WCL and stand up.

you got to admit that pic was funny

Penman · Joined: 09 Mar 2008 Posts: 13

Bigj, you still choose to bury your head in the sand. Raymond was free to use all his full contact stand up skills , yet failed to deliver a single strike. Why would he even consider fighting a pro grappler without dedicating more time to takedown and ground defense? It would be foolish to enter a pro boxing or kickboxing ring with only minimal experience , and the same goes for MMA.
It was all great while Raymond was delivering the spectacular one kick knockouts , but it won't work if his tools are removed. The same goes for a takedown artist who enters the WCL , so it's not even a point worthy of debate. Raymond and his trainers were responsible for ensuring that he could compete in pro cage fight , and came up short. I wish him the best , but he's not going to be greater than Cung Le at this rate.