WCL TALK

jean-luc · Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 66

I agree with you that the victory is much less important than Stephen's recovery. That's certainly also his own opinion. In Austin, he took his injury and his "defeat" with an impressive dignity but, nevertheless, I bet he must not be very happy with the outcome of the fight. I think it would just be fair to him if this "loss" disappeared from his record.

On the other hand, I don't think it ever was Ray Thompson's intention to question the referee's integrity nor the honesty of the WCL officials. The accident happened so quickly and so suddenly that it is not surprising that the ref didn't exactly see what had happened. That doesn't mean he was biased or dishonest or incompetent. But this is exactly the kind of case where video evidence can be useful.

bigj · Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 253

good... so when the ref misses leg kicks that are illegal and anything else that happens that in a close fight we can protest and have the decision reversed and a foul assessed ...that's going to work. as fast as it happened ray was sure, without the benefit of video, that raymond used an illegal move that belonged somewhere in the mma to hurt stephen. there is no clear an convincing evidence that anything happened and the call on the field should stand. What amazes me is you don't think ray was punching when all he was doing was punching and back peddlilng until WB fell into him and yet no matter how many people have posted that they don't agree with your assessment you act as if yours is the only rational opinion of what happened. no where in combat sports do they use video once the event is over.and you kow it. yeas ago, on the point tournament circuit they overturned a final decision i think between arlene limas and linda dently and that was a mess for a few years after that. This whole thing is crazy.

jean-luc · Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 66

A few remarks : Ray Thompson was extremely close to the action. I think he was sitting just behind Daniels and right of him. So, he could see what was happening much better than any of us and even probably than the ref. Moreover, he asked Stephen, who confirmed that Daniels had pushed him.

It is not true that all Raymond Daniels "was doing was punching and back peddling" during Stephen's blitz. If you watch the video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v6yek81uV6I), you see that, when Stephen begins his rush, Daniels first launches a left hand and misses. Then he put his left hand on the back of Stephen's neck and holds or pushes him. That's definitely not a punch. That's what I meant when I said that Daniels didn't hit Stephen in the neck. I never said Daniels had not launched any punch during Stephen's rush. I said that the fact that the picture shows his hand on the back of Stephen's neck doesn't mean that he punched Stephen in the neck because that was not a punch. You should read more carefully before replying. Then Daniels launches his right hand for a punch or for a hold, the video is not conclusive on that point. Then Stephen loses balance and falls.

jmm1 · Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 8:58 am Post subject:

Jean-luc-

I cannot speculate on Ray Thompson's intentions, but his actions did in fact undermine the authority of the at-event refs and the league. I have watched countless boxing matches where the match ended and the scores were announced and they were very different than what the crowd and fighters saw. It sucks, but human judgement is part of combat sports, period. It also, from a fan's perspective, looks like a coach's favoritism. Is Ray Thompson protesting just because this is his son? Would he care enough to question the integrity of the officiating for another fighter? I know that you know Ray Thompson, and maybe his motives behind this, more than any of us. But to somebody who is "just a fan", many things about this protest seem odd.

jmm1 · Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 9:01 am Post subject:

Also, the youtube video is a case of reasonable people disagreeing. I do not see a push or pull in the tape (and I have watched it hundreds of times...too much time on my hands I guess :) ).

bigj · Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 253

you are such a trip, jean luc.

jean-luc · Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 66

Once again, as far as I know, Ray Thompson didn't question the integrity of the referee or other officials. He questioned the fairness of the decision. Honest people can make unfair decisions, for instance because they didn't see something happen or for whatever other reason. Most mistakes, in fact the huge majority of them are committed in good faith.

It is clear that Ray Thompson was especially upset because it was his son who had been injured (and very badly). I don't think this is "coach favouritism", it's just the normal feeling of a father for his son.

I agree with you that the youtube video is not 100% conclusive. The fundamental reason why I am convinced that there was a foul is because Stephen told me he had been pushed. I know him, he is my friend and I trust his word. But the official videos should be able to show what exactly happened.

One last word to end this post on a more optimistic tone : from what I know, since the surgery Stephen seems to be recovering fast, which surprises his surgeons and physiotherapists. So, I keep my fingers crossed and I knock on wood, it will certainly be long but it could perhaps not last one year or more as was initially feared.

jmm1 · Posted: Tue Feb 27, 2007 11:39 am Post subject:

I am glad to hear that Stephen is doing better than expected, that is what I have heard on other boards as well. I agree that mistakes in officiating can be made, in fact, it is part of the game. When Ohio State beat Miami in the NCAA Football National Championship a few years back, it was based on a judgement call (and a bad one in most people's opinion). The fact is, a decision was made. Was it the wrong decision? Maybe. It appears as though the Thompson camp does not like the result and is simply trying to change it. Why not just let the decision be final? Come back next year and prove you are the best fighter around. That method preserves everyone's reputation that is involved. I just do not see why it is so important to Ray Thompson that he is willing to question the integrity of the league's officiating and make himself look like a whiner.

jean-luc · Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 66

Once again, I don't think it is the same to question the integrity of the WCL officials and to want to overturn a decision. You may strongly disagree with a decision and still believe that the people who made it are honest and fair. After all, that's what you do every time you appeal a decision of justice : it does not mean that you believe the judges were partial or bribed, it just means you think they were wrong.

As for the importance of this issue for Ray Thompson, once again I am not his spokesman but I guess that's where the injury plays a role : had the accident not happened and had Raymond Daniels be eventually declared the winner on points, I don't think Ray would have protested the decision unless it was very obviously biased and unfair. But inflicting a loss to Stephen after he has been badly wounded is really adding insult to injury.

jean-luc · Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 66

By the way, I wonder whom Big Jack is targeting when he talks about the time "when kickboxers were men and not bitchers". As far as I know Ray Thompson is 51. So, he belongs to that time.

jmm1 · Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 7:27 am Post subject:

I was not saying that Ray Thompson believed the judging was bribed and partial, only bad. By protesting, he is effectively saying that the at-event officiating was terrible and poor. In my opinion, that undermines the integrity of the officiating and to some degree the growing sport.

As for who bigj is targeting, I have no idea what Ray Thompson did 40 years ago. You have said several times on this board that you know him personally and see him as a man of integrity. The only basis I have to gauge him on is since he coached in the WCL. So far, he has been inappropriate at ringside twice (once with an opponent of his son’s and once with a referee), been the lightening rod at the center of the biggest controversy in the league’s short history (and in no way does this protest make him seem like he is not whining because he did not like a fight result), used profanity and threats to call out posters on another message board, and got his whole family in the act (though that may or may not be his fault). He may be a great guy, hopefully I will get a chance to meet him someday and decide for myself, but the impression I have of the guy at this point is generally negative.

jean-luc · Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 66

What kind of profanity and threats did he use to call out posters on another message board ? I think I read all his posts on the IKF message board (I presume that's the one you are talking about) and I don't remember any threat or profanity.

jmm1 · Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 8:18 am Post subject:

Jean-Luc-

I will not post the link to the thread on this board. It did happen and if you are interested, post an email address and I will send it to you privately. You are missing the forest for a couple of trees as to the point I am trying to make...

bigj · Joined: 01 Feb 2007 Posts: 253

jean luc, I just don't believe you. this isn't about fairness , it's about hero worship. you act, on one hand as if there is clear and convincing evidence and yet you know and admit that the you tube isn't clear or convincing. If this was about fairness then there was no need to accuse Raymond of anything and to that and what was said at ringside that goes along with the prince and pogue mentality, I am offended. All lthat had nothing to do with a father son anything. I can understand argueing with an official but accusing Ray of an illegal technique that belonged in the octagon is bs . Some of the language and attitudes at ringside concerning Ray puts anything I've posted that you have found offensive , paie in comparison.

It amazes me that you pick up on the word bitchers and miss the point of jeff smith having one loss to a chump who wouldn't grant a rematch who got a win in his back yard with outrageously biased judges and as stomach turning as it was then as it is today ..it still doesn't match the stink you and thompson have made over this loss.

Who am I targeting as bitchers ..the people who are bitching over the damn loss obviously.

Herman Goering thought the world of Hitler but the world didn't see it the same. a bit of over the top hyperbole but you get the picture

Jmm1 has it right.

jean-luc · Joined: 25 Jan 2007 Posts: 66

I said (because I try to be honest) that the youtube video does not provide totally clear evidence, although it clearly shows a hold or a push. I think the official videos would show it more clearly and the WCL should release them.
What was said about Daniels at ringside that was so offensive ?